Any advice on Hybrids?

[judee]

I've seen some folks are convinced it can work. I'm not.

I know you can start pumping the Magic skill from level 5, but that takes 3 points from the fighting skills.

Still, your warrior will get a lot of fighting practice, so I guess that's okay.

But some of those, like Samaurai, Ninja, etc, have too many necessary skills to pump.

Just seems to me you're taking away from a fighters main force when you try to hybrid. But... this game is designed where, if you don't have at least one magicker, you run into some problems.

I'm finding that out. Most of those problems can be worked around. Spell scrolls can be used with artifacts (which should be high enough later in the game) and there are bombs and such.

But there is one major spell I'm not sure I'm going to like doing without - Portal. Yes there are some mechanical portals in the game, but still...

So... Portal is a 5th level spell. I have a group of Misfits with no magicker. Who do I pick for eventually learning the Portal spell? Fighters, of course, forget it. My Monk? Magic points instead of Critical Strike? Ack!

The most logical seems to be the Ranger. You give him 3pts bow, 3pts ranged, leave 3 points for alchemy. Even doing so, he's going to be level 18 before he is even eligible for a 5th level (Portal) spell. And that is assuming he has 60 pts. Alchemy by then.

Lessee... 3 per level, level 5 starts with 5 + 3, if my math isn't screwed, by level 18 he'll only have 47 points.

Oh, you say, have him USE it, that will make the points go up.

So, okay, so he casts sleep every single battle. That's one round he's not shooting arrows. Is it enough to get the points up? And sure there are non battle spells. sleep, click, and save, sleep, click and save, yawn.

Just seems to me it would be a lot of work, and then only to have something available much later in the game.

I think next time I'll at least have one magicker with my brutes. This just isn't practical.

Has anyone really built a hybrid of any kind and found their average capabilities in the two realms (fighting and magic) to be a better balance than just the straightforward approach?

I'd really like some advice here. My Misfits are tired of walking!

judee

[KraGorn]

While I have asked about and discussed using hybrids' casting, and am still trying to figure a way  , the highest spell level I have bothered researching is 4, largely due to the skill point problem you cite.

The Valk I think is the easiest to raise since she needs only a couple of skills pumping so the 3 into magic won't hurt.  You already identified the Ranger's need for a third skill, scouting, and thus the trade-off you'd make.

The Samurai is hard to do as far as I can see, with no possiblity whatsoever if you want to see her get any crits ... IMHO they make a usable fighter/mage in the D&D tradition if you're willing to accept them as a more-or-less straight fighter and ignore critical strike and lightning strike.

I think the same argument can be made for the Monk and Ninja; if you want a fighter/mage with their own particular school then I think it can be done, but whether it ends up being particularly useful is another matter ... I know many don't think so and I'm still far too much of a newbie to this to have any confidence in my own views  

[Spydah]

Methinks the hybrids magic is not supposed to be all that great, if they cast like a mage and fought like a warrior... why would you play anything else?

Also, I think the hybrid magik is support, or very long term... I never put any points in thier magik. I give them Heal if possible, or some other support outside of battle spell, and have them cast it first after battles. Eventually, they get ok at it, but it's nothing I depend on.

I Play Sams for the Dual, Crit and Lightnin (plus the nifty items for them), similar with the other hybrids.

[KraGorn]

I totally agree Spydah, it's obvious Ser-Tech didn't mean their magic to be useful   ... which begs the question why they bothered!

They nerfed hybrid's magic twice over; first the 5 level delay in their ability to learn magic and second the fact that only the Valk as a chance of putting any level-up points into it.

Sure they can all gain through practice but with their inevitable mediocre to pitiful INT and/or PIE they'll either (a) learn at the rate of 1 point per dozen battles or so or (b) never have the SPs to make it useful.

Either one of these would be a reasonable penalty for wanting to play them as fighter/mages, but both make them pretty useless ... except for those like you intending to take everyone to level 50

I still think my priest->valkyrie at 5 looks attractive but I'm not sure ...

[judee]

KraGorn, how does a changeover like that work?

At level 5 you'd have access to some pretty good spells, Magic Screen, Armorplate, Silence, etc. So, provided you save your picks or find or buy them, what happens next, once you change to Valkyrie?

I assume you can use what spells you have, but does the game consider your character a first level Valkyrie? In other words, do you have to level up five more times before you can again "add" levelup points to Divinity, or can you continue adding anyway. And, if you can't add, does the Divinity still go up with use, even though you aren't officially a priest anymore?

I have to admit, I've never really understood the rules of switching classes. Espeically when it comes to magic.

judee

[Spydah]

Methinks you can use whatever skills you already have (provided you do not lose those skills upon switching), so the 5th/1st Valk could cast all those high-falootin spells, but could not advance in any of them until level 10ish.

So is my understanding, which is one reason I don't change classes. I don't see the benefit, as that same 10th level priest would rock... but ah well.

[kiwi]

The easiest way to build up your magic is to give your hybrids one level of their magic class before they get their magic skills, this takes care of your skill points and you shouldn't have to dump any points into magic from that point on.

[KraGorn]

judee said:

KraGorn, how does a changeover like that work?

It's as Spydah says, but to expand your character has a single "character" level, no matter what their class. For a single classed character therefore

 class level = character level

Now, when you change classes you keep the "character" level and go to level 1 in your new class (or whatever you had before changing if you were this class before). So, as Spydah also said, when she levels up to "character" level 6 and changes class she'll change to a "class" level 1 Valkyrie.

Equally as Spydah points out, she'll have to be "character" level 10 before she becomes "class" level 5 and so start to get spells ... LEVEL 1 spells at that because she's only a level 5 Valk.

So, why is this better than never changing class from a pure Valk?

In effect she's no better off than had she started as a Valk and started her spellcasting career at level 5 (both character and class) but the party has use of her spells through that time.

Her skill in magic didn't increase because a level 1-5 Valk can't use magic (she CAN use magic during this time because she retains her Priest magic ability, but doesn't earn experience points for them). At level 10 she regains the ability to learn spells since she's now unlocked here level 5 Valk magic skill.

As an aside, if at character level 11 (which is Priest level 5, Valkyrie level 6) she were to change back to priest she'd become a Priest level 6 and character level 12.

A couple of finals point. First, when you change class you keep the skills of that class but LOSE their special abilities, so in this case the Valk wouldn't have the Priest's "turn undead" special skill, a character only has special skills for their CURRENT class. Second, changing say a Priest to a Monk is BAD because the Monk never gets Priest magic so while she could use whatever spells she knows they'll never get any better, whereas with the Priest->Valk eventually they'll start increasing again through use.

It's all a bit complicated, AD&D is a lot simpler and makes dual/multi-classing a lot more useful and interesting.

[kiwi]

I think that the bad side of being a priest for 5 levels and then a valkyrie for 5 levels, is that you spend significantly longer in the second 5 levels.  That means that practice becomes a much larger part of the picture.  I think that you can definitely develop a magically oriented hybrid by only taking one level in your caster class.

['Guest']

KraGorn:
  When you change classes that share a spell school, the max level for spell learning does not reset.

ex1:  level 5 priest can cast level 3 spells

     Multi the priest to a valk

     At level 10 (5 valk/ 5 priest) spell learning starts again.

     At level 12 the 7 valk/ 5 priest is capable of learning level 4 spells (3 learning levels at valk + 5 from priest = 8 level requiremant).

ex2:  Level 1 mage can cast level 1 wizardry spells.

       Multi the mage to bishop

       At level 3 the 2 bishop/1 mage can cast level 1 Alchemy, Divinity, Psionic spells and level 2 Wizardry.


I hope this sheds a little light on why the pure spell caster -> hybrid/bishop switch can be useful.

[KraGorn]

knightmayor said:

ex1:  level 5 priest can cast level 3 spells
     Multi the priest to a valk
     At level 10 (5 valk/ 5 priest) spell learning starts again.
     At level 12 the 7 valk/ 5 priest is capable of learning level 4 spells (3 learning levels at valk + 5 from priest = 8 level requiremant).

Hey that's news to me  You're sure?  That's even better:

kiwi said:

I think that the bad side of being a priest for 5 levels and then a valkyrie for 5 levels, is that you spend significantly longer in the second 5 levels.  That means that practice becomes a much larger part of the picture.  I think that you can definitely develop a magically oriented hybrid by only taking one level in your caster class.

Yes, I see your point, however my feelings are that the availability of Guardian Angel and Web while still in the Lower Monastery is of great use ... however I'm far from sure of my facts  ;D

[kiwi]

KraGorn said:

Yes, I see your point, however my feelings are that the availability of Guardian Angel and Web while still in the Lower Monastery is of great use ... however I'm far from sure of my facts  ;D

Yeah, but you want to have your hybrid take advantage of the fast leveling at the begining of the game.  You can often be at 5th or 6th level when you head to the upper monastery... and 7th or 8th when you hit the road.  

It all depends on the rest of your party... and if you dont have any healer, then taking an extra few levels will be helpful, however, I think that your main benefit comes from getting the professional bonus points when you take a caster level, and then learning spells as your hybrid class as quickly as possible.  You get more HP that way too...

[KraGorn]

Well I speak from my vast experience of starting 4 parties, only getting two to Arnika, one OUT of Arnika and retired back in the monastery ... so clearly I'm an expert at this game and don't need any advice from anyone  ;D

READ THAT AGAIN ... especially the  ;D at the end  

[Spydah]

LOL, actually, from other posts 'round here, whilst not getting all that far into the game, you are still lots more knowledgeable than LOTS a peeps on some other boards I could mention that have finished the dern thing already ;p

[Merkin]

KraGorn said:

A couple of finals point. First, when you change class you keep the skills of that class but LOSE their special abilities, so in this case the Valk wouldn't have the Priest's "turn undead" special skill, a character only has special skills for their CURRENT class. Second, changing say a Priest to a Monk is BAD because the Monk never gets Priest magic so while she could use whatever spells she knows they'll never get any better, whereas with the Priest->Valk eventually they'll start increasing again through use.

It's all a bit complicated, AD&D is a lot simpler and makes dual/multi-classing a lot more useful and interesting.

OK, so I'm assuming (always a dangerous thing ) that a gadg switched to an alch would continue being able to use any gadgets he had created, but would lose the ability to make new ones?

And a sam, if switched to fighter, would they still be able to use samurai specific weaps and armor?