Please help re-build my party (tediously long!)

[KraGorn]

Forgive the long pre-question ramble.    <br>
I've decided something has to give, my now-retired party was based on Merkin's 4-rangers-changed-to-xxx idea but the single bishop wasn't providing sufficient spellpower for healing etc. (almost certainly MY fault in not building her propery):

 Fighter, Valkyrie, Ranger, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Bishop

which worked fine, reaching Arnika at 7-8 but began to struggle against the tougher critters there.  I think I'd screwed-up by misunderstanding some else's advice and pumped the Fighter and Valkyrie as if they were still a ranger: result, no melee power and melee became increasingly difficult or tedious to avoid.

So, time for a re-think, still wanting ranged/spell combat but with some better melee power when needed.

I'm considering ejecting the Gadgeteer and replacing him with another spellcaster; I wasn't too fond of him anyway although I do realise they get very powerful later on. I also think I'll replace the fighter with a Samurai along the lines of Atlus' "Perfect Samurai" as per his posting in that other place!  <br>
Losing the Gadgeteer of course leaves me with locks/traps as a problem area, I don't want to rely on Myles since I don't plan on taking RPCs unless I really have to to drive the plot, so the Valk or Sam may have to give way to a front-line rogue: question, which of these two would I be better off with alongside the rogue, I lean towards the Valk for Polearms and Priest magic.

Alternatively I may decide a rogue isn't sufficient up-front so the Valk/Sam would stay and I'll have to change one of the Rangers for a Bard with a bow, but I really, really don't want to lose two critical-getting ranged characters unless I can't help it.

Thus the Sam and/or Valk will start as their native selves, not as rangers to start with, and then take 1 level of each of their magic counterparts before leaving the monastery.

All this is a roundabout way of saying what spellcaster should I consider?  Basically, do I go with the standard 2 Bishops (mage/priest and alch/psi) or a single 3-colour mage and a specialist in the 4th school?  If the latter, which specialist school would be better?  <br>
Given the Valk with get some Priest spells and the Sam some Mage then either Alchemist and Psionic seems in order. I'm leaning towards the Psi due to their immunity to mind magic, meaning Turncoat, Insanity etc.

OR, do I simply replace the Gadgeteer with a Bard and hope to get some decent instruments; trouble there is that I have no choice over what spells I'll be able to get for her of course, it's whatever instruments I come across.

Given the vast experience round here I'm hoping someone will prevent me doing something stupid, and apologies for a posting which grew greatly in its' making  ;D

[judee]

Okay, I'm not really sure what you are looking for, just a couple of comments/thoughts.

You talk of Valkyrie as a front lliner, but Valkyries are great with Polearms, which is an extended weapon. Thus they can go on the second line, behind front line.

Of course, one lone fighter front line might get kinda lonesome. Hope he's tough!  

If you are looking to remain strictly magic/long ranged as much as possible, I assume you are giving decent bow skills to your fighter.

Other than that, I just have to suggest a Bard to replace the Gadgeteer. You will come across some very good instruments. Granted, not immediately, but pretty early. Certainly much earlier than you can find the ingredients for similar items with the Gadgeteer.. Actually, my bard instruments came much earlier than my bishop could have learned the same spells.

As to if that is enough magic for you, it's a matter of choice. You can't have everything. If your interest is magic, I'd go for a couple of pure casters along with the Bard. If you simply want to remain long ranged, using magic as defense rather than offence, a Bard and a Bishop should be enough, if you build your Bishop right.

But don't underestimate the Gadgeteer. Lol, I know you have decided to dump him, but he is great for a ranged party later in the game.

I have a group with Bishop, Bard and Gadgeteer. At level 15, the Gadgeteer is now shooting off double and triple rounds. Of course, better ammo means better hits, my problem is keeping her supplied! But some of the Gadgets she has made (and found) are really growing on me. I was ready to dump her too, even around level 10 or so, I was thinking "humph is this all there is?" But she is slowly changing my mind... No, she doesn't have the ranged criticals of a Ranger, but she has one particular gadget that gives an instant kill. And it must be fairly available after a certain level, because I've found two of them.

That said, if I could only choose one, between Gadgeteer and Bard, it would definitely be the Bard.

Lol, now you can mull this over and everything else we'll throw at you and you'll still have to decide what you want.

Of course, that's half the fun of this game. Go ask Merkin, he knows.  

judee

[KraGorn]

judee said:

Okay, I'm not really sure what you are looking for, just a couple of comments/thoughts.

Yes, I feared I'd rambled on too long, my apologies  8)  Okay, I'm after advice on these issues:

1) Is an all-magic solution to locks/traps possible?

2) Is a Lizzie rogue (for VIT) or Dracon (for Breath) going to make it on the front-row while providing sufficient locks/traps?  He wouldn't even HAVE to do massive damage, he's there primarily to protect my ranged/spell fighters while THEY do the damage; IOW he's a brick wall rather than a tank.

3) If I take a pure spellcaster alongside the Bishop, which is most useful?

If the answer to (1) is YES then I don't need to worry about a character capable of handling this issue.  If the answer is NO then I need to figure out how else to do this, thus question 2.

The answer to (2) tells me whether I have to find a locks/traps strategy which uses either a Bard or Gadgeteer; I keep reading the Gadgeteer gets great late on but MY problem is the here and now  

The answer to (3) tells me what I can replace the Gadgeteer in my current line-up if I don't need a Gadge/Bard or am forced to lose one of the Rangers instead.

Thanks for your thought judee.

[stage direction: shuffles off muttering about damned games being too hard ... not to play but to figure out how to start  ]

[Merkin]

KraGorn said:

Yes, I feared I'd rambled on too long, my apologies  8)  Okay, I'm after advice on these issues:

1) Is an all-magic solution to locks/traps possible?

2) Is a Lizzie rogue (for VIT) or Dracon (for Breath) going to make it on the front-row while providing sufficient locks/traps?  He wouldn't even HAVE to do massive damage, he's there primarily to protect my ranged/spell fighters while THEY do the damage; IOW he's a brick wall rather than a tank.

3) If I take a pure spellcaster alongside the Bishop, which is most useful?

If the answer to (1) is YES then I don't need to worry about a character capable of handling this issue.  If the answer is NO then I need to figure out how else to do this, thus question 2.

The answer to (2) tells me whether I have to find a locks/traps strategy which uses either a Bard or Gadgeteer; I keep reading the Gadgeteer gets great late on but MY problem is the here and now  

The answer to (3) tells me what I can replace the Gadgeteer in my current line-up if I don't need a Gadge/Bard or am forced to lose one of the Rangers instead.

Thanks for your thought judee.

[stage direction: shuffles off muttering about damned games being too hard ... not to play but to figure out how to start  ]

Preamble...The management denies all resposibility, culpability, and liability for damges in the "rangers--->other class scheme".  I like rangers, and have postsed about them, but haven't class-changed yet.  It mihgt have been my evil twin Skippy, though.

IRT #1:  Yes, if you are willing to forgo some locked doors and chests until you can learn the Knock-Knock spell.  It would mean missing out on some early game goodies, but nothing critical, IIRC.  You also get a couple of knock-knock wands in the monastery, just use them wisely. And of course, a strong fighter can sometimes bash open a locked door or chest.

#2, I *think* a drac rouge, although a bit of a slow starter, would do ok.  I'd pump up vit during character creation, (just until you get one more hp, that gets you enough vit that you;ll gain one bonus hp per level...adds up), then ignore vit for dex, spd, and str.  For skills, stick to dagger, dual, and stealth.

#3. I find the plain old vanilla Mage the best spell-caster in the game.  Good range of de-buff, immob, buff, and area attacks.  My mage is WAY the kill leader in the party, getting close to having as many kills as the 2 fighters combined.  Being able to cast 3 consecutive 6th-lev fireballs, while the priest is webbing, and the bard is piercing, has proven...not sucky  

[KraGorn]

My apologies Merkin, could have sworn you wrote, under a different name in another place about a party that was started out as 4 rangers  

Is Knock-Knock available as a spell that can be picked by a mage?  If so then it's gettable before leaving the monastery, otherwise I presume it has to be purchased; where, in Arnika?

As for the rogue, I'm thinking about a sword/shield wielding rogue (shield for defense, don't know if a rogue can use a shield), since I also have to put 3 points into locks/traps and thus have to find them from somewhere.

[Merkin]

Knock-knock is a 3rd lev. Mage spell, so it should be available to you before you leave the monastary.  It would mean forgoing that beauuuteeefull fireball for awhile, though.  And yes, you can buy/shoplift it in Arnika, can't remember which shop off-hand.

Rogues can use sheilds, but it means forgoing their double weapons.  Seems to me that stealth is a better choice than sheild.

[judee]

Actually, there is an item in the Monastery (a cap) that helps with locks and such, can only be worn by a non-lock-picker. (no rogue or ninja ro bard, etc.) It gives you just enough skill to pick a couple of tumblers and try to open trapped chests.

I ran a group for awhile with no rogue skills, just magic. I found that Divine Trap along with the special item combined just fine to open trapped chests. Locked doors too, with knock knock, you often have one or two tumblers that don't hold, and those can easily be picked by the person wearing the cap. If you want to rely solely on magic, it is a good idea to keep this item at hand. It makes an all magic approach much simpler, and yes, it works if you practice your skills.

But I would still suggest a rogue skilled character, just because it's good to combine with the magic spells, and you don't always have the spell points or power for the harder locks. At least not early on. You wouldn't even have to put a lot of points in it. Just a few to get going, then it will grow fast through use, and you can concentrate on more fighter like skills.

I agree with Merkin about the mage. He's a great one to complement a bishop, then have your Bishop concentrate on Priest spells and either Alch or Psi.


I can tell you really want to keep your two rangers. can't blame you for that. I love my Ranger!!! I can only imagine what two would be like, yikes!

The main thing is to make the party you feel most comfortable about. If you like ranged play, go for it. It's doable, and then some.

In fact, my original party, that was supposed to be mixed, allowing for both kinds of fighting, is turning into a ranged party mainly because it's my more natural way of playing.

Be sure to let us know what you decide, and keep us posted how they do. We'll be glad to help with any advice. Lol, most of us have tried out a lot of combinations!

Good luck!

judee

[KraGorn]

Okay judee you and Merkin helped a lot, thank you both.

One last question: have either of you or anyone else taken a priest and changed to bishop at level 2?  I did this with the bishop in my now-demised party and she got a useful boost from that, I guess the same thing would occur using a priest.

Of course, that would mean starting with a priest and a mage ... kind of retro that  ;D

[tdierikx]

My current party...

2 Dracon Fighters (left and right front line)
1 Dracon Rogue (middle front line)
1 Mook Ranger (front middle)
2 Elf Bishops (back middle)
Various RPC's boost the flanks - currently Vi and about to grab RFS-81 (been through Myles, Madras, Saxx, Urq)

Reasons for this scary party?

Dracon Fighters - one male (I'Smash'em), one female (I'Kill'um) (aesthetics OK?) - nice melee, nice and strong for carrying all that loot, and DRACON BREATH, and they build up pretty fast...

Dracon Rogue - female (I'Steal'm) - she be tough enuff for carting loot too, has awesome melee with Dual Weapons - not too bad with a bow either...

Mook Ranger - male (Fluffy) - dunno why really - followed someone else's advice for him...lol!

Elf Bishops - one male (Offence), one female (Defence) - they specialize in what their names suggest - makes it easier on levelling, and in combat - who deals healing and who deals death...lol! Maybe I should've started them as a Priest and a Mage then changed to Bishops later?

From what I've read on the many boards dedicated to this game, I'm about halfway through it - and, boy it's one of the harder games I've tried to play! My poor hard drive must nearly have a hole in the platters from the amount of saving I've had to do...lol!

This is by no means my first party either - all the others died natural deaths on the Arnika road... so I'm thinking I may onto a winner now...lol!

Anyways - the last Wizardry game I ever played was Wiz 1 on my old Apple II back in the 80's - so I really am starting behind the eightball here - boy things have changed!!

I'm really more of a Might & Magic girl - but they keep putting the danged dates back on the next installment - I thought I'd give Wiz 8 a burl - should keep me busy at least until M&M 9 is released...hahahaha!

T.

[judee]

KraGorn,

I did something similar, but with a mage. I started mage, made sure he had enough points in INT PIE DEX and SEN to level up on the very first levelling.

I chose mage because it gives you points not only in Wizardry, but in several of the realms (I think fire, water, air, and mental, not sure though). Mage is the only one that does that, if I remember correctly. Plus, he is my only Magic caster for that group and I really wanted those early mage spells of Missile Shield and Enchanted Blade.

I changed to Bishop first level up, and immediately got 5 points in each of the skills, Divinity, Psi, and Alch. From there I will raise Divinity for the healing, and maybe Alch or Psi after those two are upped a bit.

Btw, this only works (first level change) if you choose a Human or Gnome. I tried with fairy and elf, but they were too low in certain attributes for an immediate change on first level.

As for starting Priest then changing to Bishop, seems that would work well too, especially if you intend to concentrate on priest spells. You'll still get a bump in the skills (psi, etc.) you just won't have as much starting in the realms.

Either way, I fully recommend the first level up changeover strategy for a Bishop. Unless you really must have a fairy or elf. Not sure what level you'd have to be for them to change, but the further along the change, the less advantage, imo.

Good luck!
judee

[KraGorn]

judee:

About the mage->bishop route and using "heal".

I took this with my "late" party, took a faerie mage and changed at 2 (yup, a faerie can do this if you put the creation points in the right place).  The "problem" with this in the early levels comes from using "heal". Since it's in more than just the divine realm (it's in alch and/or psi) and since you put points into those schools then using heal bumps one of those not Divine  

You have a good point about the priest's starting points.  I was working on the fact that since the mage gets bonuses to schools so would the priest, but of course the priest presumably only has access to Divinity and so could put points into the others.  I hadn't realised that until you mentioned it.

tdierikx:

Interesting splitting your bishops into offense and defense, I haven't seen that strategy mentioned before.  How did you split their schools/realms?

About your rogue: How have you been distributing his level-ups?  As you've seen in my initial ramble, one option I'm looking at is a dracon rogue on my front-line, so I'm not sure how I'd split his 6 stat and 9 skill points if I want to make sure he always has sufficient locks/traps skill.

Talking of M&M, the first party-based RPG I ever bought was M&M6 (until then I'd spent 14+ years playing Infocom adventures etc) and at first I hated it, but in the end it's now one of my favourite, last time I finished with 3 sorcerors and a druid all in their 70s.  I finished M&M7 with the good path and got bored with 8 before exploring all areas ... Wiz8 is somewhat harder than they were  

[tdierikx]

The 2 Bishops theory...

Offence gets to build as you would a Mage...

Defence builds like a Priest...

The reason for me choosing 2 Elf Bishops was that they have better weapon/armor choices than the "pure" spellcasters, and the ability to Uncurse really appealed to me as well...lol!
The Bishops get 3 points to INT and PIE - then move on to SPD, etc.

The Dracon Rogue can be a really cool frontline fighter with those dual daggers - just remember to whack 3 points into Locks & Traps every level-up... and the starting STR and VIT helps a lot...lol! Strategy is 3 points each to STR and DEX, and 2 points to Daggers, Dual Weapons, Stealth, and 3 into Locks & Traps. Once you max out STR, go for the 3 points in SEN, then VIT, etc...

T.

[KraGorn]

tdierikx said:

The Dracon Rogue can be a really cool frontline fighter

You're my friend for life  ;D, that's exactly what I was hoping to hear, now I can concentrate on my spellcaster issues.  Right now I'm thinking of taking a dwarf (or rawulf?) priest in the flank and seeing how she goes, then change over to valk after she gets some useful early spells.  <br>
In the back will be two spellcasters, one almost certainly a bishop, the other up for grabs.  I've seen judee post, if I'm not mistaken, that she's running a mage+psi combo, I like the sound of that because of the psi's immunity to those nasty mind-altering attacks like insanity and turncoat.  However, your offense/defense idea is a new tactic on me, I need to go do some reading.

Many thanks for confirming my hopes for a dracon rogue  8)

[tdierikx]

Well - it was a toss-up for the Dracon or the Lizardman for my Rogue...

The Lizardman was much nicer for the extra STR and VIT - but lost out due to the -10 in Mental and Divine resistances - and the Dracon has Dracon Breath - nuff said!

The theory is that we be getting heaps of treasure, right? Gotta be able to carry it all! hahaha

Who really needs so much INT and PIE for a non-magic-caster - build them last... INT is only a secondary attribute for Locks & Traps

T.