Q about dual weapons

[judee]

Okay, several classes do NOT have dual weapons as a possible skill. Yet they still have place to put dual weapons if you should so choose.

So what happens if you do that? Are they penalized because they are trying to fight with two weapons instead of one? If that is the case, is there any circumstance where it would be good to do so anyway?

I'm asking specifically because of my Fairy Ninja.

She's still in the Monastery, batting away with her fairy stick. (I'm keeping her on staff instead of martial arts, some of you may know why.)

Anyway, the fairy stick can be either primary or secondary weapon. And there is another staff available, the shillela (sp?) that can also go primary or secondary.

So, I was thinking, why not give her one in each hand? Two hits for the price of one. But, without dual weapon as a listed skill, I'm afraid she might not be as effective as if I just give her one and let her bash away one handed.

Anyone know for sure??

Another possibility occurs to me. She does have martial arts skill. What happens if I pump up martial arts and put the fairy stick in her secondary weapon slot? Does she then hit or kick and bash with the wand too? (I've wondered about this with my monk, too, and that off handed chain thing you can get for him).

Just trying to give her every advantage possible. Of course, she is in an all magic/ranged group, so her main purpose is for the thrown criticals. But sometimes monsters just won't stand back and let you zap them, so I need to know how to best fix her close up skills.

Any help or advice will be more than welcome.

judee

[vesselle]

sheesh! you don't ask the easy stuff, do you?

i know that merkin can elucidate you on this, as he's posted on iw about it before....

in the meantime, try this. equip her with both. then take a look at her stats, for each hand. i think her primary will be stronger, but as long as the stats on her secondary aren't negative, it should be to her benefit. even a couple more points in damage for each hit is good, right?!  esp when you're hitpoint-starved.  

the only drawback would be if she absolutely can't gain skill points for duals, then she would always kinda be level 1 at it.... yknow? never get any better.

so, have you tried putting even just one point into dual weapons? if you can do that, then you can let her actual use of the two weapons push the skill up. (sorry, i know you know that!)

something else i thot of, if she definitely can't dual, then maybe it would be bad for her to try. it means, of course, that she would never improve at it. it might also mean that she could be more likely to hit her own head and knock herself out.

LOL! i better just back out of this and wait for merkin to come on board. please don't be mad at me, just because i get talky after an all-nighter!!

 ;D        ;D        

allright, now for the martial arts. no. she won't use both her hands and the weapon. martial arts is strictly 2 naked hands and feet. the weapon only comes into play if its like an extended hayai-bo, for those hard to reach critters... you know the ones i mean. slimes that like to stretch out backwards to avoid your touch, and junk like that.

sorry, judee, none of this really is my area of expertise, but since i have my sweet little monk and have watched her with her hands and feet and weapons for so long, i thot i could give you a little advice.

time for beddy bye now! nite nite

V***V

[judee]

Hope you slept well, V**V! Dreaming of the blond brigade!

I don't mind any advice, believe me! And that's a good idea to check out her stats with both. Sigh, I always miss the obvious ones.

As for putting a point in dual, I would if I could but Ninja's (Fairy ones, at least) don't have a dual weapons skill listed to put a point in.  

I just wondered about dual weilding anyway because I'm sure I saw a discussion once about which staffs were available for a Fairy Ninja to dual with. Someone even mentione the you-know-what being one handed, which would allow a second wand.

But just because people do something, doesn't mean it's the best thing to do.  

Oh well, hopefully Merkin will stick his gnomeness in here and give me some advice.

Thanks!

judee

[Merkin]

*in his best Mighty Mouse voice*
[glow=blue,2,400]Here I come, to save the day![/glow]

...sticking my gnomeness in...no...not gonna touch that...

On dual vs. single, I can only be a little help, I'm afraid, with my 217 parties (and counting ) I really haven't play-tested this much.  I do know for sure that you suffer an attack penalty when wielding two weapons, and I *think* that the main benefit of the dual skill is to reduce that penalty.  My gut sense, and I don't have any numbers to back this up, is that it is better to have a character superbly good at one thing, rather than mediocre at several.  So I've been leaving the dualing to the experts at it, the rogues and samurais.

If you have dual as a skill option, dex and sense are the two main attributes (reduces that "bonking self in the head" syndrome), something that ninjas need to be high in anyway.  <br>
But ninjas need to be balanced in so many areas, that adding dual weapons to the mix just *seems* like it would drag her down.

Just my $.02, would love to learn more about this, keep us posted.

[Merkin]

Found this on the vnboards, too long for a single post, so I'll break it up.

This is a re-posting of two very informative posts regarding the Dual Weapons skill, originally posted by 'Zzled'. I myself will run some tests in the coming weeks in an attempt to verify, and possibly expand upon, previous observations of the system mechanics used within Wizardry 8. If I have anything new to add, I'll be sure to post it.

Feel free to bump.

Dual Weapons: .005(at '100' bonus is 100 x .005 =.5) of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for primary weapon.

.0025 of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for secondary weapon

note: percentage-wise enables all the extra attacks, swings, and attack rating you'd receive from weapon skills

note: 0 skill gives 1/2 weapon skill bonuses for primary 1/4 weapon skill bonuses for secondary

note: strength damage bonus for second weapon starts off 1/4

Quick Summary: If you're using two weapons, try to make sure they come from the same weapon category (mixing Swords and Daggers is a waste of your skill points) and concentrate on skills in the following order: 1. The specific weapon skill; 2. Dual Weapons; 3. Close/Ranged Combat.

Other possible points of note:
1. The Dual Weapons skill affects accuracy both when using two weapons for Close Combat AS WELL AS WHEN USING TWO WEAPONS FOR RANGED COMBAT. Everyone suffers an accuracy penalty when trying to throw items with both hands. Thus, the Ninja may need to spend points on Dual Weapons as well.

2. Martial Arts (fighting unarmed) is NOT affected by Dual Weapons at all. Putting points into Dual Weapons if you plan to fight with your bare hands (or with only one weapon) is a waste.

3. Fighting with a weapon and a shield is NOT affected by Dual Weapons either.


I did a little analysis of accuracy when using two weapons, and it comes up as follows:

If you are using two weapons from the SAME weapon class (ie. a Katana and a Wakizashi, two Daggers, two sets of Shurikens, etc.), the skill that contributes MOST to your accuracy is the specific weapon skill (ie. Swords, Daggers, Throwing, etc.). The skill that contributes the second greatest amount is Dual Weapons. The skill that contributes the least is Close Combat (or Ranged Combat). Thus, you should try to max the specific weapon skill first, Dual Weapons second, and Close/Ranged Combat last of all.

If you are using two weapons from DIFFERENT weapon classes (eg. a Broadsword and a Dagger), the skill that contributes the most to your accuracy is DUAL WEAPONS. After this comes the specific weapon skill of your PRIMARY weapon (in this case, Swords), and is closely followed by the specific weapon skill of your SECONDARY weapon (in this case, Daggers). Again, the skills that contributes the least is Close Combat. Note that if you use weapons from two different weapon classes, you suffer a double penalty: 1. You need to develop more skills; 2. If your skill in one weapon is low, you are less accurate with THE OTHER WEAPON TOO. Thus, if you want to use two weapons, try to use two weapons from the same weapon class.

Maxing Close Combat adds about +16% to accuracy.
Maxing Secondary Weapon Skill adds about +24%.
Maxing Primary Weapon Skill adds about +28%.
Maxing Dual Weapons Skill adds about +40%.
Maxing Both Weapon Skills (or if both hands use the same type of Weapon) adds about +56%.

Note, however, that although a person using two weapons with NO SKILLS is less accurate than a person using one weapon with no skills... a person with MAXED skills using two weapons is approximately as accurate a person with maxed skills using one weapon. Of course, the person with two weapons gets more attacks and possibly more damage, which is why you wanted to use two weapons in the first place.

Quick Summary: Characters can get more attacks using Dual Weapons in the LONG RUN.
---------------------------------------------

[Merkin]

Part two:

(another post)

Well... it seems like a lot of people are dissing Dual Weapons. I could be wrong here, but it seems that you can get a maximum of 3 attacks per round (with 3 swings each) if you use a Primary Weapon only. If you go Dual Weapons, the maximum seems to be 3 attacks per round (with 3 swings each) for your PRIMARY weapon and another 2 attacks per round (with 3 swings each) for your SECONDARY weapon. Thus, you get:
Maximum # of swings with one weapon = 9
Maximum # of swings with two weapons = 15

In order to do this, however, you need to improve your Weapon skill(s), Dual Weapons, Close Combat AND Speed (and reach a decently high character level). [Considering the number of skills involved here, it's easier to max everything if you have one weapon skill for both weapons, like the Samurai using two Swords, or the Ninja throwing two items.]

At the start of the game (ie. Lvl 1), using two weapons is viable because you only get one swing when using a Primary Weapon, but you'd get two swings if you used a Primary and a Secondary Weapon.

During mid-game, it seems like it's better to use one weapon because you suffer a speed penalty for using two weapons (this penalty becomes HUGE if you've neglected your Dual Weapons skill).

If you persist using Dual Weapons, though, and max out all the relevant skills, you'll end up with more swings (67% more swings per round of combat) by the end of the game.

Possible Conclusion: If you use Dual Weapons, your character might be weaker during mid-game (especially if you don't allocate the skills points well), but he should really kick-ass when it comes to the end.

PS: Imagine a Ninja with 125 Critical Strike (don't forget the 25% bonus), dishing out 15 Shuriken per round. If that doesn't guarantee you at least one critical hit per round, I don't know what will.

[judee]

Okay, that seems pretty clear, thanks Merkin.

Since I can't traise a skill that doesn't exist, I guess in the long run it would be penalizing. Don't know why, but fairy Ninja's do not have dual weapons in their skill list, so there isno point in going for it.

Too bad, with thrown crits it would be nice to throw with both hands. I guess the wee little creatures just can't handle that much weaponry.

As for other skill development, since this is my magickers party, fully ranged strategy, I'll be throwing most points into throw skills anyway.

But for the other, is it worth it to be adding to staff, or should I just stick with bare hands? The ONLY reason I'm currently equipping her with a staff instead of bare hands is that a certain item will maybe be available later. (you know which one, right? Only fairy Ninja's can equip it.)

The thing is, with my playing strategy for this group, she won't be using it that much. Hopefully won't have to because the baddies will be toast before they can get anywhere near her pretty little lethal Cane.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to see how she develops. I'll be bringing them out of the monastery soon....

judee

[Runiel]

judee said:

Since I can't traise a skill that doesn't exist, I guess in the long run it would be penalizing. Don't know why, but fairy Ninja's do not have dual weapons in their skill list, so there isno point in going for it.

Hmm...I wonder if there's a bug or glitch in your game. I have used fairy ninjas and they have access to Dual Weapons. Just to make sure I just tried it out by creating a new character in the game and sure enough they start with the skill. I tried it with both a male and female fairy ninja and there was no difference.

I always put points in Dual Weapons for my Ninja(s) so that they're not penalized when throwing (I put weapons in the two slots). Of course once you get a hold of *that weapon* throwing is out of the picture, which is not really a problem because any ranged attacks can be done with magic. At the beginning (if I'm going for *the weapon*) I alternate between a Bo (for staff/wand) skills and Martials Arts with a nunchaka on the secondary slot and that works pretty good. On the other hand my ninjas have always been in a group, so I don't know how viable that approach is going solo.

Runiel

[vesselle]

~~judee~~

yah! what runiel said. i had gone in and checked my 12th party that has a faerie ninja and she definitely had duals.

hmmm. wonder what's up?


~~merkin~~

did i hear you correctly? ::leaning in very close so she doesn't miss a word:: you say you have HOW many parties?  ;D

::turns around and harshly shushes up the Blonde Brigade's giggling::

LOL! you are one freaky gnome! it's absolutely great to no longer be such a misfit.

V***V

::Blonde Brigade, singing..."He's a freak, a super freak! uh-huh He's a freak, a super super freak!"::

[Spydah]

vesselle said:

LOL! you are one freaky gnome!

I am almost SURE that I heard one of the mob say that at the Austin Powers 3 (Golden Member rofl) preview... if you saw it, you know what I am talking about.

...skitter skitter...

[judee]

Twilight Zone  

Er... I just went to look. She does have dual weapons. Just like you say. Did somebody do some magic?  

I know she didn't have it before!   I looked! I did! I wanted to put points in it! I couldn't find it!! She's at level 4 now, so that's three times I checked! How could I specifically look for it and not see it???  

Gads, I think I've been playing too much. How embarassing.  

sorry folks, but thanks for the advice anyway. At least I know it's a good thing to put points in, now that I can.

Unless it disappears again...

judee